Krackles's picture
Posted by: Krackles | July 31, 2011

Star Splangled Wars?

This scene is reminiscent of a scene from Star Wars… Or is it the other way around?

Kirby and Giacoia back on CA after a nice run by the great Frank Robbins. Those were the good old days!

John S.'s picture
Posted by: John S. | July 31, 2011

Esposito?

Tom, this page looks to me like it's all Giacoia inks. How did you determine that Mike Esposito was the second inker? I don't really see any traces of his style on it. Anybody else out there care to weigh in on this?

Tom Kraft's picture
Posted by: Tom Kraft | July 31, 2011

Reference from comics.org

Hi John, found this reference on comics.org: http://www.comics.org/issue/29459. Its up for debate again here on WiK.

Either way in my opinion the inking was really rough and looked rushed, especially in real life...

John S.'s picture
Posted by: John S. | July 31, 2011

Hmmm...

...I'm not sure where comics.org gets their info from, but like I said, I don't see any signs of Esposito on that page. As far as it looking rushed and rough...well, honestly, I can't see that, either. It looks just as slick to me as any other Giacoia-inked page -- both here and in the printed comic. Admittedly, I can't see the original, so I'll have to take your word for that...but I'd almost be willing to bet money that it's 100% Giacoia. Maybe some of the other guys out there can comment...

Frank Fosco's picture
Posted by: Frank Fosco | July 31, 2011

This might be a case where

This might be a case where Frank's habit of messing with deadlines got the best of him. I'm seeing line work here, like in panel 2 on Cap's check and face that doesn't seem like what Frank would do. Also the feathering on Cap's right leg in panel 1 doesn't seem like a Giacoia technique. Esposito may have finished what seems to be mostly Giacoia here. Also Esposito may be one of those guys who can emulate another inkers style. Can you tell I'm having misgivings that this is all Giacoia?

John S.'s picture
Posted by: John S. | August 1, 2011

The thing is...

The thing is, if you compare this page with the Esposito-inked pages in the gallery, you'll see that there are very few similarities in style. The TALES TO ASTONISH page is totally different and the NOT BRAND ECHH cover has few, if any, similar stylistic cues that can't be attributed solely to the pencilling. And the sections of the art that you point out on this page, Frank, really don't look all that unusual for Giacoia's work, in my opinion. Lastly, I'd be interested to know where comics.org even got the information that Esposito worked on this page. I'm reasonably well versed in this stuff and I've never seen any such attribution ever given anywhere else. So maybe I'm wrong, but based on all the evidence, I'm sticking with my original assessment that this is all Giacoia.

Frank Fosco's picture
Posted by: Frank Fosco | August 1, 2011

Point taken.

John, you have every good reason to stick to your assessment. I saw a couple of areas that I have questions about and it's not totally beyond the pail that someone may have done some touch up or finishes--especially when it comes to Giacoia. With that being said, if the book didn't give Esposito any credit where does this info come from? And I would like to stick to what I was saying about a week ago that these pages were usually inked by one guy.
So if I had to make a straight out claim, I would say Giacoia also--with no second inker.

John S.'s picture
Posted by: John S. | August 2, 2011

Debate

What's really strange about all this is that, on this website at least, Giacoia's work seems to be generating as much debate as that of any other inker, even Colletta. Who'da thunk it?

Tom Kraft's picture
Posted by: Tom Kraft | August 2, 2011

Re: Debate

I feel that you know when Colletta inked a page, even though he had assistants, they are nearly impossible to identify.

Giacoia had problems completing inking on time and in some cases had ghost inkers do the work, mimicking his style very closely. This leaves the door open for interpretation.

This could potential be the case this book.

Frank Fosco's picture
Posted by: Frank Fosco | August 2, 2011

What's funny about all

What's funny about all this--as much as these pages were usually inked by one guy during this time, it seems Giacoia was the exception because of his problems making deadlines. So it's really not that much of a surprise to see a second inker on his work.

nick caputo's picture
Posted by: nick caputo | August 2, 2011

After closely observing the

After closely observing the art I believe its all Giacoia. Giacoia had a lot of help when deadlines loomed, and he turned to quite a few folks to assist him and, at times, ghost ink, including Joe Giella. I've seen many instances where he either did part or all of the job. John Verpoorten filled in on a few Captain America's when Giacoia was late, according to Jim Shooter on his blog (and I had already pointed out some of those stories for the GCD some time ago). John Tartaglione and Mike Esposito also worked together with Giacoia on many covers and interior stories for Marvel in the 1970s.

nick caputo's picture
Posted by: nick caputo | August 2, 2011

In the 1960s it was unusual

In the 1960s it was unusual to see more than one inker working on a comic unless deadlines loomed. Offhand I can recall a Daredevil (# 24?) that Dick Ayers mentioned he inked in the office with Bill Everett and....Frank Giacoia (what a surprise!). Into the 1970s and 1980 Marvel's line expanded and production was not always orgazized as well as it has been, which led to lots of rush jobs, especially by inkers, since they were one of the last in the production process. Besides Giacoia, there were stories inked by Esposito and Tartaglione, the Crusty Bunkers (Neal Adams' continuity group); the Tribe (DeZuniga and his group); Romita's Raider's (new kids assisting) and many credits that read "And Friends".

John S.'s picture
Posted by: John S. | August 2, 2011

And don't forget "M. Hands"!

But at least we can now be (more or less) assured that Many Hands didn't ink this page -- nor even two! Does that mean Tom can now take down that Second Inker credit?

Frank Fosco's picture
Posted by: Frank Fosco | August 2, 2011

Inker--inkers?

I don't have this comic--I use to. Did Esposito get any credit in this issue. If so, that may be the reason for second inker although he may not of necessarily have touched this page. And if he didn't get credit in the book, how are we so sure he had anything to do with it? I suppose there could be records.

Frank Fosco's picture
Posted by: Frank Fosco | August 2, 2011

Man--!

It's gotten to the point when we see Giacoia's work of the 1970s we assume there's a second inker. Which in a lot of cases there was.

John S.'s picture
Posted by: John S. | August 2, 2011

No second inker is credited...

Giacoia is the only one. But I know what you mean. The mind reels from the thought of all these assistants and ghosts--! However, it looks to me like Feerless Frankie did this issue, at least, all by his lonesome. Maybe because it was Kirby's first issue back at Marvel, he wanted to save it all for himself.

Tom Kraft's picture
Posted by: Tom Kraft | August 2, 2011

Done.

Frank is solo on this one.

nick caputo's picture
Posted by: nick caputo | August 2, 2011

Look to Captain America #'s

Look to Captain America #'s 206 and 207 for uncredited inking by John Verpoorten.

Frank Fosco's picture
Posted by: Frank Fosco | August 2, 2011

re: Done.

Yay!--The self appointed panel came through. Thanks, John , Nick and Tom.

Now on to the next discrepancy.

Frank Fosco's picture
Posted by: Frank Fosco | August 2, 2011

re: Look to Captain America #'s

Oh, yeah--John and I been all over those.

Awesome to have your expertise in all this Nick. You should weigh in more often--we could use it.

Frank Fosco's picture
Posted by: Frank Fosco | August 2, 2011

Not in Gallery

We'll there are no pages in the gallery for 206 and 207 except the cover for 206. John and I did talk about it somewhere on here.--Didn't we John?

John S.'s picture
Posted by: John S. | August 3, 2011

Yeah...

...and that one was a doozy as well. Trying to keep track of Giacoia and all his ghosts is more maddening than the Madbomb itself! Maybe we should start calling ourselves the ghostbusters!!

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